great visit here today. we had a good time and were taken care of. appreciate the hospitality. muncie, indiana, i understand wh have a great weekend, everybody. "up with chris hayes" starts right now. good morning from new york. george mcgovern was airlifted to a hospital after he hit his head. no word on herman cain. there are strong indications he will drop out of the race. the campaign telling nbc he has not made a decision. more on that in a moment. i will be joining msnbc's live coverage of cain's announcement at noon eastern time. finally, the week's big, big,

big story, which i'm going to try not to talk about too much today. on monday, my wife gave birth to our first child, our daughter, ryan elizabeth, seen here, looking devastatingly adorable in matching pacifier and cute beanie top. mom and baby are doing great. i am now a dad and i could not be more excited. i am attempted to call in and override my staff's diligent work in creating an accident show and do two hours of how cute my daughter is. right now, i am joined by congressman gerald mat thur, heather mcgee, director of the think tank, demost. michelle goldberg, senior contributing writer for news week and the daley beast and joining us, josh borrow, contributor to the national view online, a senior fellow at the conservative think tank at the manhattan institute. a month away from the iowa caucus, events developing

quickly. we got word yesterday that donald trump has plans to host a gop debate in late september which prompted daniel foster to tweet, trump hey, crap, maybe everything they say about us is true. also, we are awaiting that major announcement from herman cain around noon. he said he will clarify whether he will abandon his presidential campaign. speculation he is ending his campaign. meanwhile, mitt romney's cloak of inehe have it ability, as we cycle through the boom, there is romney that stays at around 20% in the polls and a series of candidates that inflate like the housing bubble and crash like the financial kras sis, michele bachmann, rick perry, herman cain, newt gingrich is now atop that. romney had sort of a rough week

and the main attack on romney, which is the changing of positions is now the underlying critique. there is also the fact that he has gotten kind of testy in a bunch of interactions. he had this fascinating interview with foxx news in which bear asked him some good, tough questions. romney did not take kindly to it. check it out. >> how can voters trust what they hear from you today is what you will believe if you win the white house? >> brett your list is just not accurate. one, we are going to have to be better informed about my views on issues. brett, i don't know how much 100 times i have said this. this is an yush interview. let's do it again. you are wrong, brett. continue to read the tape. the tape goes on to say, for each state to be able to look at it. >> we are going to have to get better informed on issues. i would not use a tone that patronizing with my six-day-old

baby. i was sort of struck by that. michelle, you have been covering the gop race. we were just talking about a little bit before air. what struck me about this interview, the remarkable thing, mitt romney has been running for president for five years and hasn't had to do that much work to defend himself because of the bizarre circuit quality. >> because mitt romney has been in the public eye, we assume he is a career politician. he is a career politician. he is kind of a career losing politician, right? he has only ever won one race. he uses that to say, well, i spent most of my life in the private sector. he spent most of his life running for political office and losing. he is not that good. >> congressman, you are a very successful professional politician. you have been reelected numerous times. how closely have you been following the gop race? >> i actually have not been following it all that closely. every time i look at it, i think

of people saying things i regard as nonsense and wrong. it has been striking about the candidate of the month going up and going down. it does seem to be coming down to newt and romney now. it may come down to those two if only because there is nobody else to be the next up and coming for a month. >> they have sort of cycled through. the interesting thing about the newt phenomenon. i am fascinated, partly because i think part of the reason romney is getting more scrutiny is because newt feels like a more serious candidate, for whatever that means. >> think about what that means. the more serious candidate. >> what does it mean? >> you have to remember something, newt gingrich is someone else who has been a career politician and for quite a while, a very successful one but not in the last 15 years. he has been out of office since, what, 1998? prior to that, people don't really know him anymore.

younger people don't know him. those of us who served with him, know him. he is a very interesting character. >> say more. >> you used the word patronizing. he had one tremendous accomplishment. the democrats nominated the house of representatives, not politics. it was democratic, republican, become and forth. they dominated the house for 40 years. newt was instrumental in breaking that up and bringing the republicans into power in 1994. if you think that is a good thing, he deserves tremendous credit. it probably wouldn't have happened without him. he did that in several ways. a lot of the problems in american politics today, the incivility, he deliberately engineered. he determined, and he said so at the time, he determined, he said that if people, if the republican minority leadership cooperated to achieve things

with democrats, they would never get power. what they had to do to take over the institution was to blow it up. he proceeded to do that. he forced out the old republican leadership. minority leader didn't run for re-election in 1994, because he would have lost to newt for minority leader. when he came in, even before that, he started accusing democrats of all kinds of terrible things. he made scandals, sometimes deserved, mostly, where they weren't. he sent out tape cassettes for a period of years in the '80s. advice on how to run a campaign. one of the tapes said things like, how to refer to yourself. what phrases to use. entrepreneurial, creative, forward looking, whatever. how do you refer to your democratic opponent? status, collectiveist, communist, corrupt. how did he know the democratic candidate for dog catcher in

oshkosh was corrupt. he was just saying call your opponent corrupt, whether it was there or not. he brought a huge amount of this into politics that wasn't there before. >> this is very instructive, because you have made a point i hadn't quite thought of in those terms. what we see now in the way the republican house behaves and the way the republicans on capitol hill behave, they make largely a judgment that cooperation of any kind is against their political interest, was engenerineered, pioneered by newt gingrich. we live in his world. >> you referred to mitt romney as patronizing. patronizing is newt gingrich to a large extent. when he was elected speaker s he used to hold press conferences in which he would instruct people. he said, all of you, the public at-large, politicians, members of congress, democrats, republicans, here is a list of

books you ought to read. he told us. >> we are going to have to get better informed on our history. >> that's part of why it seems like he is surging, besides being the last man standing that there is this insane view on parts of the right that obama is a deeply stupid man. they believe he is an empty suit who needs a teleprompter and that the brilliant newt gingrich is going to wipe the floor with him in these debates and show the world what a fraud he is. >> josh, do you think that's part of what's driving him? >> i think it is absolutely right. you have seen these flavor of the month candidates. they all get feld because they are not good on their feet or not bright in a lot of cases like rick perry. gingrich can hold his own. someone described him as a dumb person's idea of what a smart person looks like. the other candidates are afraid to gang up on him, because they think they will lose in

rhetorical exchanges. i think that's his strength. you are absolutely right that republican base voters have a misconception that gingrich will mop the floor with obama. >> we will dig deeper into the appeal of newt gingrich right after this debate. [ female announcer ] secret scent expressions combines great odor protection with a lavender scent. amazing microcapsules absorb and neutralize odor releasing scent anytime you need it. all day long. secret scent expressions deodorant/antiperspirant. also in body splashes.

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newt gingrich talking about what the race will come down to. josh, you talked about the appeal of newt gingrich. you had a tweet saying that you basically thought that gingrich is a sham as a debater. he is not that good, essentially

bluffing his way to appear good. he is but the field is weak enough he can get away at that. he is an intellectual poser. he can spout a lot of facts and historical examples. it is not a coherent story. >> let me quickly defend newt. the one thing i love about him, he is an obsessive reviewer of amazon. did you notice this? >> he goes on amazon when he reads a book, random books and said, well, i didn't think this was very good. that's my favorite thing about newt gingrich. i think newt gingrich is a fascinating, compelling figure in a way that mitt romney is not. just as an example of that, in my rundown sheet, we were going to talk about romney for the first block. we couldn't sustain 90 seconds on him which epitomizes the problem. michelle? >> about newt as a deeply grounded historical thinker.

he gets a lot of credit for citing obscure, historical examples. "the new york times" story where they marvelled over his northwest ordinance. if you spend time reading a lot of right ring history, particularly christian right wing pseudohistory, this is a staple. what seems to masquerade as staples. you hear the same thing when he is talking about chile and chile's social security programs, people say, oh, he must be incredibly well-versed. chile is the go-to right wing example for their kind of social insurance. >> gingrich, of course, he has had these comments these weeks about how poor kids don't have

work habits and they should be the janitors and mop up the floor. he appeals to a certain kind of sort of welfare queenist vision that is very popular on the right. he was, of course, the original mastermind of getting rid of welfare as we know it. >> absolutely. i think it will be a real question whether that which is real red meat to the conservative base that we should be blaming down wards that poverty is trickling up instead of the lack of opportunity is the result of trickle-down policies. it is going to be a question of whether or not that would ever play in a time of general election where we have economic insecurity up and down the impact ladder. buddy roamer said this great thing. >> former governor of louisiana, running for president. we've had him on the show. he has been one of our best guests, continue. >> it is unfortunate you have to remind people. he said mitt romney represents the 1% and newt gingrich is

their lobbyist. >> congressman, one of the things i think was interesting, gingrich, his rise was in 1984. we talk about the move to the right of the republican party. i wonder like -- gingrich was the furthest right that anyone had seen at the time. he embodied the right and his class of freshmen were the vanguard of this. now, the senator has shifted even further. i wonder if he is exposed idealogically. >> i think both he and romney are exposed. if 20 years ago, you would have said on a show like this, what's the democratic position on health care reform going to be, he would have said, well, maybe it will be some sort of single-payer system or medicare

for all. what will be the republican position? well, the republican position will probably be a mandate that people get insurance from private insurance companies, do it privately. people can't afford to pay. maybe it will give them some sort of subsidy. that, in fact, was what was proposed by the republicans. it was the dole chaffy bill in opposition to what hillary was saying at the time. the individual mandate was dreamed up by the heritage foundation. gingrich supported it. hatch introduced it. now, these are wild left wing ideas. these ideas originally came out of the republican campaign. >> gingrich was on board with them? >> gingrich was on board with them. a few years later, romney was on board with them. everything has shifted. now, they are trying to deny what was at that time conservative positions. >> ron paul put out a brutal attack ad on gingrich. a little clip. beyond the words, there is a

real question of policy and a real question of values and a real question of seriousness. everything that gingrich railed against when he was in the house, he went the other way when he got paid to go the other way. >> you are an embarrassment to our party. >> he has flipped and flopped based on who is paying him. >> the es since of the washington insider. >> it is about serial hypocracy. it is wrong to go around and adopt radically different positions. then, people have to ask themselves, what will you tell me next time? >> that's ron paul hard hitting out on newt gingrich. this point on newt gingrich, josh, i'm curious to hear. to me, i said something about this the other day. there is a core of the tea party complaint about washington and the post bailout era that i find compelling and the core of that complaint is about the kind of cronyist complex around

washington, d.c., the kind of lobbyist industrial complex, the sense that big government and big business are together and making all these back room deals and screwing people. tim carney reports on this and people leaving the senate and the congress and going to lobby from the perspective of the right. i find that core complaint compelling. to me, if the tea party base of the gop rallies around newt gingrich, it completely invalidates that. he is the absolute symbol of that corrupt system. i think we will see over the next month whether he is able to maintain that position because of that. there is a lot of really damaging information on him. getting $1.6 million from freddie mac to be a historian for them. there is this speech he gave in 2007 where he is talking about the gse is great. >> government sponsored enterprise. >> a useful vehicle for promoting home ownership, an appropriate goal. and we should have a gse for

health care. you are right it is antithetical to the positions of the tea party. the question is whether he can dance around it. there is something similar with newt gingrich and chris christie. i'm hesitant to say, because i like chris christie. they both have this attitude that conservatives read as them being idealogically conservative. it allows them to get away with actual substantive idealogical deef yanss. >> it is like if you enrage liberals enough, you must be really conservative. >> even more than that, beyond that, it is not just kind of if you enrage conservatives enough. i think they don't doubt that despite these deviations, there is a solid right wing core. more than that, he channels their sense of apock lipty sichl.

newt gingrich seems to truly loath obama and capture that and put it in terms of a civilizational battle. he hates the media. which the base loves. >> he has played that card quite a bit. >> exactly. >> we are going to come back and talk about herman cain and give him a brief. i don't want to say we are going to have a weak wake for herman cain's campaign because we don't know what he will announce. we will talk about it when after this break. ed anybody...but you! ♪ i believe in miracles [ male announcer ] swiffer attracts dirt. used mops can push muddy water around. swiffer wetjet's new, upgraded solution helps prevent streaks and residue to reveal more shine than a mop or your money back. you're a fresh swiffersnapper! congratulations. congratulations.

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>> we have congressman jerrold nadler telling us he is a fan of newt gingrich's fiction. >> i enjoyed his fiction book but a lot of his politics is fiction. herman campaign has his announcement today at noon. the campaign is over whether he knows it or not.

we have seen all the polling, all the string of accusations. we should make a moral distinction between sexual harassment and the use of power of one's station to essentially intimidate women into some kind of sexual interaction because you are their boss and you have the power of a job over them and an allegation of a consensual affair which happened outside of those terms which i believe are on very different moral plains. the string of these allegations seem to have built up. i think heather mcghee. what should be written on the tombstone of the herman cain campaign? >> of all of the flameouts, herman cain, who i never believed in, call me the black woman in america, that he was going to be the tea party candidate. we had a conversation, because of herman cain, about policy, about tax policy, whether it

should be entirely flat. we started looking into the details of the 999 plan. rick perry, we didn't have a policy conversation. bachmann, we didn't have a policy conversation but as a policy person, that mattered. >> he has had a pernicious effect. he has played the role of john edwards in this republican primary. i don't mean in that way. as you made a sad face. i guess i should distinguish. he has played the role of john edwards in in way, that the john edwards campaign released a whole bunch of quite progressive substantive policy proposals that were then aped by some of those other campaigns. you had a hand in that. i feel like the 999 campaign caught fire and we have seen a string of flat tax proposals by rick perry and jon huntsman.

is that going to be something we see the nominee rally around? >> first of all, i don't think he created that interest. you have flat taxes going all the way back to forbes. jon huntsman's plan isn't a flat tax. >> it is flatter. >> the political problem with a flat tax that any has to be a huge net tax cut that blows a big hole in the deficit or a major tax increase for 80%, 85% of americans or both. it sounds good at first but a nominee can't run on it because ultimately those things get pointed out as it did with 999. the other candidates were attacking it saying it was a bad tax plan and came up with others that weren't as substance tifl bad. ultimately, the nominee can't run on it, because it is not a general election proposal. >> what is our lesson from the

me herman campaign. a failed campaign can be an excellent business strategy. it has been a publicity stunt that has been gone out of control. i don't think he would have thought he would have gotten high enough to have his sexual history investigated. he presents himself as a big tycoon. he is very rich but not as rich as he is made out of. he has been a very successful motivational speaker. i think he is worth somewhere between 2.8 and $6.5 million. a lot of money but not huge by republican politician standards. he was getting $25,000 a speech. i spoke to speaking agents who told me that coming out of the campaign, he is set up to get more like $50,000 or $75,000. sarah palin kind of laid the trail of a failed political or in her case vice presidential campaign with a lot of demagoguery is an incredible

position. >> this gets to something deeply corrupt about the american elite and political establishment. this goes across both parties. everybody cashes out. there is a paycheck waiting for you when you leave public service to chill for people, to go be part of the hedge fund as a consultant, to work in private equity. some of these jobs are perfectly good jobs or some of them might be socially useful. a lot of them have to do with essentially taking the influence you have and the connections you have and montizing that. >> i object to what you said only for the word everybody. it is not true for everybody. there are people in american politics in both parties that are sufficiently independent and don't serve the interest so that they don't have great jobs waiting for them. >> russ feingold, i want to shout out. he left and did not do that. >> and on the republican side, chris hedge when he was defeated

for re-election. i think he had a tough time finding a job. he was too independent and against the -- he was for campaign finance reform and that sort of thing. >> amy goodman of democracy now who i have been listening to for quite some time is in durban, south africa, covering the international global warming conference. she is going to join us live right after this. the best way te is to dig right in. but as his dentist, i know that to do that, he needs to use the brush more dentists use. oral-b. trust the brush more dentists and hygienists use. oral-b. life opens up when you do. laces? really? slip-on's the way to go. more people do that, security would be like -- there's no charge for the bag. thanks. i know a quiet little place where we can get some work done. there's a three-prong plug. i have club passes. [ male announcer ] now there's a mileage card that offers special perks on united, like a free checked bag, united club passes, and priority boarding. thanks. ♪ okay. what's your secret?

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the other office devices? they don't get me. they're all like, "hey, brother, doesn't it bother you that no one notices you?" and i'm like,

"doesn't it bother you you're not reliable?" and they say, "shut up!" and i'm like, "you shut up." in business, it's all about reliability. 'cause these guys aren't just hitting "print." they're hitting "dream." so that's what i do. i print dreams, baby. [whispering] big dreams. monday was the start of the u.n.'s convention on climate change held in south africa. the most important undercovered story of the week. the first of these meetings took place in 1992. in 1997, countries around the world signed on to the kyoto protocol setting targets for countries to reduce industrial carbon emissions.

we find ourselves at a moment when the doom once warned of is now imminent. 2010 was the wettest year the planet has ever experienced. 2010 ties the record with 2005 as the hottest year since measurements began back in 1880. if you have been experiencing the weather in the northeast, there is a distinction between weather and climate, but it is quite warm. the data bears that out. for years, scientists have warned that human caused climate change will lead to more weather, not just warm weather. i find this to be the single most moving powerful enunsation of the steaks of this. it comes from mohammed nashid, president of the republic of the maldives. he talks about what the stakes are for he and his country. >> please, ladies and gentlemen,

we did not do any of these things but if things go business as usual, we will not live. we will die. our country will not exist. >> our country will not exist. joining us now live from the climate change conference in durban, it is my great pleasure to welcome amy goodman. host and executive producer of "democracy now" which airs on more than 900 stations in north america. i want to get to the first question. what are the stakes in this round of climate talks in durban. >> reporter: first, chris, congratulations on your new baby. let's talk about what's really important. we even got word in durban, south africa. that's really important because of what she could face. that's what climate change is about. your baby and babies all over the world and also adults, what people are facing in the world today. this is not just a fiction of

the future. we are experiencing more extreme weather all over the world. the pentagon understood this under george bush in a report that wass suppressed and finall let out. it was far worse in the united states. you heard the head of the maldives talking about. people are gathered in durban, south africa, to take this on. they are deeply disappointed at the role of the united states right now. the heads of 16 major u.s. environmental organizations just wrote hillary clinton a letter. the chief negotiator works under the state department talking about that. his name is todd stern. saying that the u.s., which president obama promised when he came into the office, would be a

leader on challenging climate change and building a consensus around the world and how to deal with it is now becoming the chief obstacle. we are hearing this today. i just came from the streets. i'm in the conference right now but the streets were filled with thousands of people. when they marched by the u.s. consulate in durban, deeply disturbed at what the u.s. has come to represent, actually stopping any kind of discussions about mandatory limitations on something that threatens us all. also, not responsibly talking about a proposal that hillary clinton put forward in copenhagen two years ago, which was a $100 billion green climate fund to deal with the effects of climate change, especially for the poorest nations that didn't create the conditions that have led to severe climate changes but have to deal with it today.

the u.s. is standing in the way, only standing, for example, with saudi arabia. they voted to block a consensus around the green climate fund a few weeks ago only standing with saw die arabia against the rest of the world on this. the u.s. has a lot to evaluate in where we stand today. >> amy, the big issue seems to be. my understanding is there are sort of two issue ons the table. the overarching issue is the fact that there is this division between developed countries and developing countries in the kyoto protocol. there is an understanding as you said and the president of the maldives said, developing countries who have little output and have not been burning coal and are not the ones responsible for creating the crisis, they are now industrializing and need to grow and there are different burdens that need to be placed from a moral perspective on developed countries like the us and the eu or developing countries in southeast asia or

africa. the big question is, where china falls on that side of the line. the u.s. likes to basically say china is headed towards being the largest economy in the world. you need to be considered a developed couldn't true and act accordingly if we are going to have an accord. i have been in china and talked to the chief negotiator from china. our people are some of the poorest in the world. we have hundreds of millions making $1 a day. it is ridiculous to think about us that way. walk me through that point of contention right now in durban. >> reporter: well, the issue of china is very important. still, the united states is the largest per capita or emit ter or polluter of greenhouse gases, even more than china. china definitely has to regulate its emissions as well. that does not preempt a discussion about the u.s. being the leader, as president obama

promised. you are listening to the discussion you have had of the republican presidential candidates. the vast majority of them call climate change a hoax. they talk about it as junk science. i think it is really important for us to understand in the united states how alean we aone when the fact is that americans feel climate change isn't a problem. that has to do with tens of millions of dollars being put into raising questions about it by oil and gas companies that have so much to lose. in the rest of the world people see it is not only a very serious issue but the consensus of 99%, another way to use 99% of the scientists. it threatens countries all over the world and the u.s., because it is the major greenhouse em emitter, per capita, larger than

china, must be the leader. even when it comes to our own country. we are talking about freak and extreme weather like we have never seen before in our own country that costs millions of dollars in damages. >> amy good man, host of democracy now, stay there and talk more about this after this break if that's cool. s. [ laughs ] [ thunder crashes ] hurry up, lads! storm's brewin'. ♪ [ woman laughs ] stop it. ♪ to bring you a low-priced medicare prescription drug plan. ♪ with the lowest national plan premium... ♪ ...and copays as low as one dollar... ♪ ...saving on medicare prescriptions is easy. ♪ so you're free to focus on the things that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details.

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♪ and hold her tight ♪ so happy together [ male announcer ] when life changes, so can your insurances needs. use travelers free guide to better coverage to stay prepared. is your auto and home insurance keeping up with you? contact your local travelers agent, or call 800-my-coverage. once i take office, you can be sure the united states will get involved with these negotiations and help lead the world in a new era on global climate change. now is the time to confront the challenge. delay is no longer an option. denial is no longer an acceptable response. the stakes are too high. the consequences too serious. >> that's barack obama addressing a conference of governors in 2008. we have amy goodman live from

durban, south africa, the site of the u.n. climate change talks. heather mcghee had a question. >> it is not clear to me what the u.s. objections is with the green climate fund? obviously, saudi arabia doesn't want to lose the incredible profits from oil? what is the u.s. objection to a $100 billion fund? >> well, this is a critical question, because it was proposed by hillary clinton. i remember sitting in copenhagen when the secretary of state came to the climate accord conference then to make this proposal that by 2020, $100 billion green climate fund. now, they are tinkering around the edges. they are raising questions about any amount of money being committed. this is of grave concern to

environmental groups. this is president obama's constituency in the united states. once again, we are seeing, especially in this year, as we move into the presidential elections, that his base constituency that was so excited when he came into office, whether they elected him, feel they have been abandoned, not just saying you can work harder but that you have moved from being the person with the greatest vision on these issues, they are saying, to being perhaps the greatest obstacle to an accord around dealing with climate change. the company that the united states is keeping saudi arabia. you have to ask what the u.s. is doing right now. >> isn't part of the issue, in the next hour, we are going to talk about the fact that they cannot get a payroll tax cut through congress. they are struggling. the notion that a republican house would pass money for a climate fund for developing nations to deal with the effects

of climate change which, by and large, they do not agree with, seems to me completely prepos per russ. isn't the problem fundamentally, that there is no way this administration could get the money from this current congress for something like this? >> well, i mean,it is very interesting to look at the various presidential candidates. particularly the frontrunners, newt gingrich and mitt romney, and how they have flip-flopped around the issue of climate change. you have famously newt gingrich sitting in a love seat with nancy pelosi talking about the problems of climate change. i was just looking at a video of gingrich and senator kerry standing together. gingrich talking about how serious climate change is and that a new green conservatism must be developed. now, in the last days you have him saying, we don't know humans have anything to do with climate change. we don't know what causes climate change. the same with mitt romney when

he was governor of massachusetts, boasting about instituting regulations that were the strictest around greenhouse gas emissions, something to be very proud of, and now saying in the last few days, we really don't know the causes of climate change. so you have that part of the spectrum, the republicans, and you have obama saying, yes, we have to face the facts. we have to look at science. then, he is on struckibstructin of these issues. i don't agree with you, chris. i this i that political capital. expending political capital and tapping into people's concerns about what's happening in the country, especially now with the occupy movement. people understanding that corporate control of their lives is hurting them. president obama could address the american people in saying that this is an extremely serious issue that we must all contend with, that is hurting all of us around the country. new york just had a freak snowstorm, one of four snowstorms in the last 130 years in october. we are all dealing with this.

the number of lives lost around the world, it is extremely serious. it is serious for people in missouri. it is serious for people in vermont. we know what freak weather is about. if we are talking about is about. so if we're talking about saving money. i think there's a lot of legislation that could pass through congress if president obama got on board with the rest of the world. >> amy goodman is the host of democracy now. she's live in durbin, south africa covering the talks. amy, i've been a big fan of yours for a while. it's a pleasure to have you on the show. thanks so much. i appreciate it. >> it's good to be with you, chris. >> all right. we'll be right back after the the two-second delay. likhaving l . a bluetooth connection. a stolen vehicle locator. roadside assistance. and something that could help save your life - automatic help in a crash. it's the technology of five devices in one hard-working mirror.

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michelle goldberg, you said you wanted to respond to something that amy goodman just told us.

>> i'm a huge fan of amy goodman and agreed with a lot of what she said except when she said there was anything to get through congress. i think there's a lot to criticize president obama about in terms of using political capitol and not using the podium of the presidency to push these issues, but there's very little he can do. there's certainly things he can do to regulations. but there's no way he can put anything through this congress. and, you know, so if you were advising the president, even if you really were very deeply concerned about climate change, i'm not sure what exactly you would tell him to do. is it a wise thing to take on a big fight that you just can't wi win. >> in the last congress pelosi insisted on having a vote in cap and trade. >> and we voted for it. we passed it. the democrats, even with 59 votes at that point couldn't

bring it up. so how is the president supposed to get anything through? >> if you believe it's real, you negotiate. you do not subvert the fund and then deal with it. it's a two-step process. what suggests to me is the u.s. indeed as amy reported, is undermining the creation of the fund. let's remember $100 billion in the scheme of the amount of money in the world. because we're talking about a global program is not very much money at all. if you really believe in the fund, you negotiate for it. you don't subvert the negotiations. once it's been signed on, you come back home. >> i think this is a historical question. when it was the bush white house it was clear to the american people we had al gore running around saying the planet was melting. people with children were terrified. and then it was clear we weren't doing anything as a country. the great american super power

was not doing what it should be doing because of the white house. and once the visionary president who wanted us to fight for something that's more than the sum of our partisan divisions didn't at least make the moral case day in and day out about the kind of real mobilization we need to do in this country, that is a moral obligation to the future, people said it's probably not such a big deal. so we're losing credibility among the american people because of the lack of leadership. i understand you can count noses. we're not going to get a bill passed. i think in terms of the rhetoric, we still need o be saying the truth, which sh that we're responsible. this is going to hurt our future. >> there's a lot of talk in washington about the the grandchildren and the children. the thing i think about most for little ryan growing up is growing up in a world that's four, five, six seven degrees warmer with a lot of misery around the world and here at

home because of that. >> former deputy communications director for the obama white house on the president's fight to extend the cable tax cut. that's coming up next. ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling ♪ i think i'm falling [ male announcer ] this is your moment. ♪ for you [ male announcer ] this is zales, the diamond store. take up to an extra 15 percent off storewide now through tuesday. you could spend as much as $200. olay says challenge that with an instrument that cleanses

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chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. call the number on your screen or visit our website to apply. good morning from new york. i'm chris hayes with jerry nather from new york. michelle goldberg of "newsweek." and josh barrel the natural institute online. if you're just joining us, we just had amy goodman on. we were talking about climate change. a spirited climate debate ensued during the break. we turn our attention to republicans who have met a tax cut they don't love. the payroll tax cut extension set to expire on december 31st. what is it about this tax cut? president obama is for it. the prerogative tax cut. the real stimulative effect. and today the bill to cut the taxes lower, which would have

been paid for was denied an up or down vote despite the backing of a majority of the majority of senators, not enough to overcome the republican filibuster. and by cutting salaries and jobs of sfral workers, also failed with the majority of republicans voting against their own plan. still republicans seem to understand the political cost of imposing the tax cut. and so they are trying to get giveaways in order to turn chicken extrament. i'm paraphrasing. what's so interesting about this, and josh, i want you to respond to this. i'm going to play sound from obama in a second. there's two theorys about republicans. what is animating republican objections for the president. the good faith theory is they o positive the policies because they think they are bad. they will thurt the economy.

the bad thing is they want the economy to be bad. if the economy is terrible. for me the initial opposition of the republican caucus to the payroll tax cut is pretty strong evidence of the bad faith theory. it's hard for me to think that they think it's bad policy. it's something they supported in the past. they supported the first time around. they suggested it the first time around. here's barack obama essentially making this case. >> this really should not be controversial. a lot of republicans have agreed with the tax cut in the past. the republican leader in the senate said, quote, i'm quoting here, it would put money back, a lot of money back into the hands of businesses and into the hands of individuals. that's what he said. another republican leader said it would help small business owners create jobs and help

employees spend more money, creating more jobs. one republican called it a, quote, conservative approach to help put our economy back on track. so what's the problem. >> jack, what's the problem? >> well, i think a few things here. republicans have a good faith objection to pay for the thing. that's because they view this as one of several bites at the apple to drive up the top income tax rate coupled with the taxes that were part of the health care act,that are about a 3% tax. and baumrack obama's push for additional taxes on millionaires. they feel they need to told the line on the issue. i think republicans, there are two ideas that hold compatible. i think republicans in congress honestly don't believe the cain stimulus works. i don't think they think a tax cut effects economic performance because it's temporary. permanent tax cuts -- >> but they make cane cainsian

style arguments all the time. when there's a surplus, they make arguments we need to give money back to taxpayers. when the economy is in bad shape, they make these all the time. >> think never priestly said tax cuts ought to be pay for. jon kyl said expenditures have to be paid for, but tax cuts should never have to be paid for. until now. until this tax cut. now you have to pay for it. they don't like to pay for it. obviously i agree they don't want the economy to improve. they don't want anything the president does to succeed. it's a question of who has economic value in this country. right? i've heard so many republicans really just scoff at the idea that unemployment insurance can create jobs. eric cantor, even when trying to get his caucus to vote said i can't defend it economically. but it puts money in the pockets

of people, and that's always good. it's the idea that the people of economic value in the country who can really create jobs have to be either well thinker heirs or billionaires, billimillionai. people already wealthy. this is counter to -- >> let me get back to josh. because i cut you off. >> this is republicans not believing in cainsian economics. they don't think the act of putting money in people's pockets creates job. >> whose pockets? >> payroll is everybody's pockets. this isn't that progressive of a policy. it's more progressive than the other alternatives. >> but the people who are get the most benefit are people with high incomes. people in the republican base. people in the top percentage do well in the policy. i don't think it's about stiffing the poor. just so everyone is clear. payroll taxes are cut out

$100,000. it doesn't have the effect of the bush tax cuts, which are income tax cuts. what you only pay in the first 100,000, it's more progress. >> it's $1,000 for somebody making $50,000 a year. it's $2,000 for someone making $10,000 a year. for someone making $25,000 it's 500. in that sense it's regressive. now remember n the stimulus bill passed two years ago, there was a make work pay provision which is $400 to every taxpayer and $800 to a couple. that was very progressive. that was very economically stimulative. the republicans refuse to extend it. this is less progressive. still stimulative and still important. >> i think there are two things

republicans want from tax policy. one thing they want is to constrain spending and starve the government of revenue. i think they're not very concerned about that right now because the deficit is already so large and revenues are already so low, i don't think that they view this, especially because it's a temporary one-year tax cut, i don't think they view it as a vehicle to achieve long term shrinking of government. they want lower marginal tax rates to encourage people to work. everybody. maybe especially at the top because that's where the rates are the highest. and capital is more sensitive than labor is. >> much less than republicans -- i mean, one of the things really interesting about this theory is that it's theory, and i don't want to get too in the weeds. but it's a theory about what drives the mark zuckerbergs of the world that is without empirical foundation. which is that mark zuckerberg is driven by the marginal tax rate on his income to come up with awesome facebook things.

and if you raise that by 5 percentage points, mark zuckerberg is like, screw it. i'm going to retire to my pad in palo alto. the assumption is fundamentally about that. i think actually we have seen from the performance of the economy under higher marginal tax rates it simply doesn't hold. >> there is absolutely no empirical evidence for the proposition that people rish or otherwise. and whether it's taxed at 30% or 40% won't make a difference. i would say to a point. if we came up with 100% you would see people's behavior change. >> you never had 90% tax rates on capital. >> i want to talk about the politics of the push for this political -- for the payroll tax cut with the former deputy of

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jen is the former deputy communications director at the white house now a senior managing director for a global strategy group, which represents a number of energy companies and we have a full link on our website at msnbc. thanks for coming on. >> good morning. congratulations on the birth of your daughter. >> thank you very much. thank you very much. i'm pretty excited. so i want to talk about this -- the political argument here. and i wonder has "the new york times" ran a story, and i think it was probably five or six months ago, and it's supported by polling that shows if you poll americans, most people don't think their taxes have been cut under barack obama,

despite the fact that most americans have received a tax cut. how much of that wedge between what has happened to people's taxes and what their perception is, how much of a problem is that politically for the president? >> well, i think what we've gone through over the last three years clearly been one of the most challenging economic recoveries, and not just a generation, probably a couple of generations. and the making work pay tax cut which i know was discussed in the last couple of minutes was very effective. an economist and the nonpartisan cpo said it was very effective in stimulating the economy. but sometimes people don't notice when there are few extra dollars in their paycheck every month or every two weeks, so it was hard to notice. but i think it's important to remember here, that when we're talking about the payroll tax cut, we're talking about $1,500 in the pockets of families making $50,000 a year. and when families know that is coming, that is something that they can save, but that is something hopefully they're

going to spend more at the grocery store, they're going to spend more at target. they're going to spend more buying books for their kids. whatever it may be. that's a lot of money, and that's something that cannot only help people get by, but it can help stimulate the economy on an every day and real basis. >> just so people are clear, if we extent the current tax cut, which is -- it would be $1,000 in the pockets of people paying 50,000. if they increase it, it would be 1,500. you're right. i want to make sure. because we have two numbers. do you think that, let me sort of get on the other side of this question, which is if we're going to say, as i as a liberal, i'm going to say the republicans are being hypocrats, then maybe i should be opposing it because it's a republican policy. is there a problem with a democratic president running primarily on tax cuts, choz

whose chief political argument is cutting taxes, when cutting taxscan only do so much to build the foundation fur long-term economic growth. >> well, there are many versions of cutting taxes. cutting taxes for the highest income, you don't have to take my word for it. any economist and any private sector analyst will tell you that is not an effective way of stimulating the economy. the payroll tax cut, making work pay, those are effective ways of stimulating the economy. now there are many other ways of stimulating the economy that the president supports. extending unemployment insurance infrastructure investment. i could go on and on. the problem here is there's a double standard. and republicans in congress will say that cutting taxes for the highest income is stimulative. it is not.

last time i academiced most republicans in congress are not ph.d. economists and making statements not fact based. >> john boehner said i'm not an economist when asked about the effects. you want to say something? >> well, jen is exactly right. one tax cut is not another tax cut. in general, anything that you can do to put money into the pockets of people who will spend it is stimulative to the economy and will help create jobs. if i spend money to buy something then someone else will be hired to make it, to market it, to sell it. the problem with tax cuts is they'll only spend a little part of it. a little piece of it. after you put 50 out what are you spending money on? unemployment insurance, on the other hand, they are going to spend every penny of it. ditto for lower income people on social security. the work pay was targeted at

working people more. now there is a problem with the social security thing, which is why i voted against it. it takes money away from social security. >> you voted against this tax cut the first time around. >> i sure did. it was part of the entire debt ceiling. >> right. >> as i recall. i voted against that. but one of the reasons i did was this. because it takes money away from social security, which we're putting back into the general fund. but politically it removes the argument that social security has nothing to do with the deficit. you shouldn't talk about it in the same terms. and at this point we have to renew this. the economy demands it. to not renew this would be a kick in the teeth and probably throw millions of peep out of worth. >> jen, quickly, i want you to respond to what congressmen have said. this is an argument that republicans have adopted. i'm losing track of who is on which side.

this is an argue republicans have adopted which is basically this starved social security revenu revenue. >> i understand. i know this has been a big argument out there. but what's important to remember here is this is a proposal that both sides have agreed on in the past. is it perfect? is it the top number one thing the president would do if he could do anything to stimulate the economy? it may not be. but at the end of the day, private sector economists democrats and republicans have agreed that this is a positive step we could do to help the economy. and there's no reason there should even be a debate in congress now. they should be moving to pass this. this should be moving forward. we should be moving onto the next thing on the agenda. >> jen, sep at global strategy group, thanks so much for coming on appreciate it it. >> thank you. >> occupy wall street targeted president obama and other democrats this week. that story is coming up next. mar a a selling fishcakes from the back of his truck,

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on wednesday two of the biggest remaining occupy camps in the country were evicted by police. in philadelphia police arrested 250 people in the plaza. mayor michael nutter said they had to go to make room for a $50 million renovation project. almost at the same time, a raid was taking place in los angeles. more than 1,400 officers moved into the park and arrested 200 people failing to disperse. police in white hazardous suits which they wore for fear of biological infection. also occupy wall street protesters took a turn that i think is fascinating. they went after democrats. targeting fund-raisers by president obama and the democratic congressional campaign committee. this may be indicative of what's next for occupy wall street. we have some sound of the

protesters outside fund-raiser for the dccc, the democratic campaign -- congressional campaign. here's their complaint using the human mike. >> the democratic party. >> the democratic party. >> going to war. >> they also bailed out the banks! >> and in the health care system. >> that was ran by health care industries. >> so if there's any confusion. >> so if there's any confusion. >> about this movement. >> about this movement. >> we're not democrats. >> we're not democrats. >> we're not republicans. >> we're not republicans. >> we are the people. >> we are the people. >> and we are pissed off. >> and we are pissed off. >> no more money. >> no more money. >> in politics! >> in politics. >> that's the bill you voted if for war and you bailed out the banks. not you personally.

>> democrats in the house with 126 to 81 against the war. against the war in iraq. not in the senate. the house democrats voted 3-2 against going to war, even though the house leadership at the time was for it. but most of us voted against it. >> when you see these protesters going after a dccc fund-raiser, what's your response? you're someone who af great deal of admiration for in both your politics and your sort of sensibility. we've had conversations about how broken the finance system is. isn't it crazy you have to go to the hotel ls. >> listen. the campaign finance, to the extent they were protesting the system, they were absolutely correct. >> they were. >> as far as i'm concerned the campaign finance system is a cancer on american democracy.

if we don't fix it, at some point this was a good 200-year run. that's the way it's going. you put any person who wants to work in public office, unless he has a few tens of millions of dollars in his pocket into the position of raising huge amounts of fund. then you say don't get into a conflict of interest. it's almost impossible to avoid either the appearance or the reality. >> has there been a moment in your career when you brought it up. you had to look in the mirror? >> well, you're always trying to think, or not to think, if i vote this way, who of my contributing friends will be angry? it's human nature. you have to try to avoid it. does everybody succeed in avoiding it all the time? i doubt it. >> i want to say, i think that you said that they were protesting the campaign finance

system. i'm not really sure that is what they're protesting. >> the last line was we are pissed off. no more money in politics. >> but what they're protesting to a certain extent is democrats participating in the kind of events that the finance system make mandatory. there's something obscene about seeing democrats raise money from wall street fat cats as they pretend to be a champion of the 99 pblgt. it would be suicidal to opt out given the system as it is. >> it will also be new york eve and it would be naive by both parties. when you see things like when we that had the legislation to enable bankruptcy judges to cram down the value of the loan to the value of the house, when he sees the house. >> what happens right now so

people are aware of the facts here because this is very important. if you declare bankruptcy, and you have two homes. you have vacation home and a first home. the vacation home, the judge can come in and say to the people you owe money to, we'll write down the principle of this. you only have to pay back so much. that's the way it is. >> they have to pay back the amount of the value of the home? they can't do that on the first home. first homes are protected. it's a good way of dealing with it. >> if you owe more on the car than the car is worth, they seize the car. >> the only thing you can't are student loans and your first mortgage. i.e., the way most americans -- >> so there was legislation on capitol hill. >> we passed it twice in the house. i don't know if they own it, but they have a large interest in it. >> let's talk about who owns congress more after this break. follow the wings.

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we are having the nerdiest arguments during every break. here at any panel i have a congressman from new york. heather mcgee. michelle goldberg from the daily beast. and josh who writes for the national review. we're talking about occupy wall street going after democrats. i wonder, heather, whether you think this helps the movement or hurts it. it's a very fraught situation. the democratic party and barack obama. it takes up 90% of my twitter feed arguments and responses to the show. i wonder if there's something alienating to a constituency wall street might want to bring a long.

>> first the power of the tea party politically is it went after the the republicans. it said there is a court value system that we need to discipline the elected officials with. i think anything we can do to get corruption of politics into the light, it brings in a lot of people in the 99% into a conversation that sounds like it's tantamount to the issues that we're facing in the country. >> let me suggest the first thing that you just said. that is the tea party enforcing discipline. threatening the republicans. they did. and they had a tremendous impact. here are the principles. this is what we want.

we will launch political attacks on democrats who don't meet them, and support democrats who do, they can have a tremendous impac impact. >> part of the problem is the way they attack democrats is the tea party wanted to take over the republican party and has taken over the republican party. that's been kind of the right wing m.o. since the start of the religious right. where as i think one of the huge tragedies and problems with progressive politics since the '60s is the tendency to despair of electoral politics in general and say it doesn't work. the system is screwed and we don't want any part of it. we don't want to sully ourselves and we're going to fight it by creating an alternative counter cultural society. >> when i was in college we called it learned helplessness. when you couldn't do something about it, you found a va to avoid engaging so you wouldn't

go through the process of fighting and losing. they're going to lose. the reason is that the republican party is more ideologically coherent than the democratic party. and the tea party was right. i don't know that democrats are out of sync. >> that depends. that depends. the intelligent political party for progressives would be to say, okay, maybe he's very conservative district, in a more liberal democrat could win this. we're not going to deal with that. so and so is much more conservative than is necessary for that district. so we're going to have it there. >> can i make a response? i think -- i understand what you're saying about the learned helplessness and the despairing

of politics. gloria steinam was not running -- wasn't primary candidate. martin luther king jr. and selc and the the entirety of the civil rights movement architecture was essentially not involved in electoral politics. their fundament channel was creating -- was forcing the system to encounter the moral demands of the movement and the politics followed that. >> but they were also engaging with politicians. >> right. >> at one point. if but if you were sympathetic to them. i want to support this and that proposal, they supported you, they praised you, et cetera. >> there's also a time lapse here.

the culminating battle in the 1960s was the civil rights movement. it became so close to being passed in the civil rights in the constitution. but that came years after this entire movement has percolated and people were in book clubs and people were doing all sorts of stuff that was the cultural manifestati manifestation. >> but the point is certainly not that you don't need a broader social movement. the broader problem is when the social movement, instead of saying we're going to be separate from the democratic party is one thing or separate from lek trorl politics, saying we want nothing to do with it. >> occupy isn't saying that. i think what's different between the tea party and occupy is frankly the tea party was the end of a very long conservative movement there was stale ideas about the size of government and things like that. and it got the brothers to step

in and say here's some money to run great campaigns. occupy wall street will not get the same money. >> they're already changed the discussion to where to extend from. all we were talking about a year ago was the deficit, the deficit, the deficit. it's frankly a long term problem. they have injected into the discussion what politicians like me are not able to inject into the discussion. where do they go from here. that remains to be seen. >> in terms of occupy wall street's success, i want to play this bit of sound from frank. who is the gop word smith master mind pollster talking about occupy wall street and what his fears are about it. >> i'm so scared of this

anti-wall street effort. but, man, they're having an impact on what the american people think of capitalism. and so i'm trying to get that word removed. replace it with economic freedom or free market. the public believes capitalism. they prefer it to socialism. we have problem. >> you agree with him? they're making us question the fundamental soundness of capitalism. >> well, he's the one with the poll numbers to look at. and i think the economic stagnation we've been in through the last three years has made a lot of people question the market system that they feel better about a few years ago. the thing republicans don't need to be as afraid as they may

otherwise might be, they've succeeded in getting people's attention and saying things people are sympathetic it to. that's an sentiment that everyone can agree with. this was the problem with john mccain's 2000 campaign for president. he's running on financial reform. everybody says that's great. nobody goes and votes on that. what they ought to be afraid of is if the occupy movement became more like the tea party. they are not likely to be as successful this the tea party in holding democrats to account because of the ideological disperseness of the coalition, i think they really could have a lot more impact than republicans and democrats would. >> i agree with that. there's a chinese model of

capitalism. there's a capitalism that we practice in the country from 1945 to 1980, where there was a social compact. you have lots of union power. they taught us that income went up with productivity. that stopped being true. productivity skyrocketed since 1980. income flat lined. we created ed d a large middle that got the benefits. and criticizing the system and saying let's go more like the 14945 to 1980 system. it's a capitalist system that worked for people is a very valid political argument. >> and there's capitalism in germany, which is david brooks model. it involves union members sitting on corporate boards. which ask a capitalism we can afford. >> a capitalism in germany that working wonderfully, until he

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[ female announcer ] if you can't afford your medication, astra zeneca may be able to help. just a second i'll tell you what i didn't know when the week began. first we have a preview of "weekends" with alex witt. >> we have jerry sandusky in a new interview. he talked to "the new york times" on camera, and he answered very poignant questions. in a matter of hours we'll learn whether herman cain will drop out of the presidential race. we'll bring you his announcement live. and newt gingrich. there he goes again. reaction to his latest statements on putting poor children to work. and here's your official reminder. join me at noon for the live coverage. don't go too far. >> i won't. >> what do we know now that we didn't know last week? the last decade ties the record

as the hottest ever measured. and another conference at preventing local climate change, we face a worldwide crisis in governing. if we don't be fix it we won't be able to fix much else. the powerful will take from the weak. if you survey the globe, you see a lot of that. now we know that the largest residential solar project tr has the green light as they plan to install solar panels on 120,000 military housing units across the country. we know we're going to need tens of thousands more prompts like this in the future. we don't know if we can summon the collective will to make that happen. submit your now we knows on up.msnbc.com. we now now mitt romney doesn't take kindly to impertent questions and newt gingrich continues to discover new frontiers in self regard.

>> where as i would have thought originally it was going to be mitt and not mitt. i think it's going to turn out to be newt and not newt. >> republicans have dramatically reversed course and believe you must offset the cost of tax cuts after a decade in which they believe the exact opposite. we now now that the gop messaging group is in his own words, frightened to death of occupy wall street. he's advising clients to avoid using the word capitalism because the word no longer enjoys the support it once did. someone is trying to hold the big banks accountable. massachusetts attorney general mar martha coakley is filing a lawsuit. in another context this would be called stealing people's homes. we have precisely this routine

law breaking, those participating in the upcoming occupy our homes movement will be striking back against. the united states congress wants to mandate that any noncitizen accused of terrorism be detained without a trial, we just passed the national defense authorization act included a raft of provisions, including one to this thors u.s. military to operate within the country's borders in possible violation of the act. we know the politics of this are insane. the american civil liberty union is on the same side in opposing the bill in handling the military and detainees. 93 senators from both parties are on the other side. the white house renews the veto threat. i don't know if we'll use it. now know the sublime ecstatic

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i want to find out what my guests know that they didn't know when the week began. we begin with congressman mather. your district line is right here. what do you know that you didn't know when the week began? >> a majority of members of both parties in the senate. are willing -- voting for a bill that permit answer american citizen accused of being an ally of al qaeda or somebody else to

be jailed indefinitely without any trial, without any evidence because someone in the executive branch of government said, you're it. it goes against every american tradition, every legal norm we've ever thought of. >> were your surprised that this didn't get more coverage this week? >> i'm surprise ted it got the votes. >> tell your colleagues to come out here. >> i always think about the 2050 as a lot of things. 2050 is targeting emissions towards. 2050 is the year that we'll be a majority/minority country. and i'm taking a personal privilege here to say that we also know who might be the maybe party of the 99% candidate for president in 2048. >> can we get a shot of this? this is for ryan. it's a future president onesie.

>> i almost jumped the gun and made a joke about her being president in 2050. what do we now know? >> i think we now know that despite -- you know, i talked about my frustration with some of the anti-politics that occupy wall street sometimes displays. but i think we also see that moving into a more savvy and effective mode of direct action in occupying the park, which is occupying the homes that are being targeted with foreclosure. it's a practical activism and symbol call activism that could make a difference. >> we'll put a link on our web sigh after the show to check that out. that's an effort to use the model to occupy homes that they will take to foreclosure. josh from the manhattan institute, what do we now know? >> something we no longer know is mitt romney will be the republican nominee. he's dropped below 50%. gingrich is making a real rise.

one thing i've been struck by what i'm seeing is a rise among conservative policy elites in interest in taking a second look at jon huntsman. even eric ericson, who is certainly influential in some way, he's getting e-mails saying huntsman isn't that bad. i think the next flavor of the month will be him. >> you're saying we may get some huntsmentum. >> yes, killed it. no, i think that's something we've been debating a bit among my staff. has huntsman sort of alienated himself from the republican base that is he is never going to this get his ride on the merry go round of front-runner status, or is it possible that the establishment of the republican party, which again generally does call the shots, i think the 2010 election was extremely atypical in that regard. usually what happens in republican primaries and the

republican party is it's a fairly sort of establish mentarian party, and you think there's a chance he'll run. >> he doesn't have the policy problems with conservatives that mitt romney and newt gingrich do. >> it's an affect. >> hee seems to have have an inability to stop himself from poking conservative based people in the eye. i can relate to that. but i'm not running for president. >> the one problem he may have is he does say that it causes climate change. >> we should break up the banks to not pass the establishment. >> i think his bank proposal is getting interest from people, both moderates and liberals surprised to sit. >> we talked about it on the show.

they unveiled. at first i haven't -- i haven't gone too deep in the weeds of the policy details. but the top line looks appealing in certain ways in terms of putting the caps on taxes and achieving the things dodd-frank was unable to do. my thanks to jarrold spd nadler. josh barrel from the national review online. thank for joining us today. coming up next is "weekends with alex witt." i'll join her at noon for the kovrm of the herman cain announcement. and join us on sunday. we'll have reverend sam rodriguez who will weigh in on tonight's gop debate. it's being hosted by mike huckabee. and this is big. our first interview with don berwick since his controversial departure from the obama administration. stay up to date on facebook at

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